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MacOSX-TeX Digest #1399 - Friday, June 10, 2005
Re: a problem after reinstall TeX
by "=3D?EUC-KR?B?waQgtN6/tQ=3D=3D?=3D"
Re: [OS X TeX] bibdesk 1.1
by "Norm Gall"
Re: [OS X TeX] bibdesk 1.1
by "Adam R. Maxwell"
Re: [OS X TeX] Re: a problem after reinstall TeX
by "Herbert Schulz"
Re: [OS X TeX] Re: a problem after reinstall TeX
by "=3D?EUC-KR?B?waQgtN6/tQ=3D=3D?=3D"
Re: [OS X TeX] What Happened to My Lucida Bright?
by "Gerben Wierda"
Re: [OS X TeX] What Happened to My Lucida Bright?
by "Herbert Schulz"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Bruno Voisin"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Alain Schremmer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Fernando Pereira"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Claus Gerhardt"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Alain Schremmer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Simon Spiegel"
Re: [OS X TeX] PPC to Intel
by "Alain Schremmer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Alain Schremmer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Jon Guyer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Jon Guyer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Jon Guyer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Alain Schremmer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Alain Schremmer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Michael S. Hanson"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Jonathan Kew"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Bruno Voisin"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Steffen Hokland"
Beta ConTeXt?
by "Bob Kerstetter"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Alain Schremmer"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Ettore Aldrovandi"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Justin Walker"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Jonathan Kew"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Bruno Voisin"
Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
by "Justin Walker"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: a problem after reinstall TeX
From: "=3D?EUC-KR?B?waQgtN6/tQ=3D=3D?=3D"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:19:01 +0900
Dear all,
After upgrading to tiger, I reinstalled TeX using i-installer.(2005
develop - full)
I also reinstalled ConTeXt, XeTeX and crate formats for ConTeXt.
All of my private fonts and other style files are located in my home
directory, ~/Library/texmf/... Since there is no changes of my
private files, I only run updmap for my private fonts. After this, I
got a problem when compile a file to use truetype fonts. It couldn't
locate fonts and make pk files. the error messages as following.
(/usr/local/teTeX/share/texmf.tetex/tex/latex/amsfonts/ueuex.fd) [2]
(./crypto.aux)kpathsea: Running mktexpk --mfmode / --bdpi 600 --mag 1
+57/600 --dpi 657 ounbtmb7
mktexpk: Running gsftopk ounbtmb7 657
gsftopk(k) version 1.19.2
gs: No such file or directory
gs terminated abnormally with status 1
grep: ounbtmb7.log: No such file or directory
mktexpk: `gsftopk ounbtmb7 657' failed to make ounbtmb7.657pk.
kpathsea: Appending font creation commands to missfont.log.
Warning: pdflatex (file ounbtmb7): Font ounbtmb7 at 657 not found
kpathsea: Running mktexpk --mfmode / --bdpi 600 --mag 1+57/600 --dpi
657 ounbtmc8
After a long creation of pk files, I got a pdf file which is almost
blank except some strange letter.
What did I do wrong? Is there a way to check what cause the problem?
Thank you.
Dalyoung
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] bibdesk 1.1
From: "Norm Gall"
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:45:53 -0600
On 9-Jun-05, at 8:23 AM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:
>
> On Jun 9, 2005, at 07:12, Norm Gall wrote:
>
>
>> I use carbon Emacs (not surprisingly) and various built-in
>> functions (like bibref) gag on them. I have some lisp that
>> converts back, but it sometimes take a while to do a 500 entry
>> database.
>>
>
> Funny, I parsed that as "I use carbon Emacs ". Anyway, we use
> capitalized names since they are used as keys in a dictionary, and
> things break internally if we change a character in the key.
Well, I suppose that's fair enough.
> We could probably lowercase them on saving, but shouldn't bibref be
> fixed to understand the keys, since they're correct BibTeX?
>
I am not sure that they are. All of the examples of bibtex database
files provided in teTeX have lowercase field names as does the
bibtext specification in the LaTeX Book by Lamport.
n
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On 9-Jun-05, at 07:59 hrs, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 06:46, Norm Gall wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Are you sure that it is the order and not the capitalisation of
>>>> the field names? I've had a feature/bug request in for months
>>>> about that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just curious: what's the problem with capitalization of field names?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> --------------------- Info ---------------------
>>> Mac-TeX Website: http://www.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
>>> & FAQ: http://latex.yauh.de/faq/
>>> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
>>> List Post:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> "No man was ever taken to hell by a woman unless he already had a
>> ticket in his pocket, or at least had been fooling around with
>> timetables."
>> -- Archie Goodwin--------------------- Info ---------------------
>> Mac-TeX Website: http://www.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
>> & FAQ: http://latex.yauh.de/faq/
>> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
>> List Post:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --------------------- Info ---------------------
> Mac-TeX Website: http://www.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
> & FAQ: http://latex.yauh.de/faq/
> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
> List Post:
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] bibdesk 1.1
From: "Adam R. Maxwell"
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:36 -0700
On Jun 9, 2005, at 10:45, Norm Gall wrote:
>
> On 9-Jun-05, at 8:23 AM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 07:12, Norm Gall wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I use carbon Emacs (not surprisingly) and various built-in
>>> functions (like bibref) gag on them. I have some lisp that
>>> converts back, but it sometimes take a while to do a 500 entry
>>> database.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Funny, I parsed that as "I use carbon Emacs ". Anyway, we
>> use capitalized names since they are used as keys in a dictionary,
>> and things break internally if we change a character in the key.
>>
>
> Well, I suppose that's fair enough.
>
>
>> We could probably lowercase them on saving, but shouldn't bibref
>> be fixed to understand the keys, since they're correct BibTeX?
>>
>>
>
> I am not sure that they are. All of the examples of bibtex database
> files provided in teTeX have lowercase field names as does the
> bibtext specification in the LaTeX Book by Lamport.
Ah, the beauty of an undocumented syntax! I'll spare everyone my
rant on parsing BibTeX, and recommend Nelson Beebe's article in
TUGboat (1993, v. 14, no. 4); suffice it to say that much of what is
known about BibTeX has been developed by reverse-engineering it.
For instance, BibTeX is surprising case-insensitive with respect to
field names and even cite keys:
@ARTICLE{mYcITeKey2005,
Author =3D "someone",
Year =3D 2005,
Journal =3D "Not Likely"
}
is equivalent to
@article{ mycitekey2005,
aUTHOR =3D {someone},
yeaR =3D 2005,
Journal =3D "Not Likely"
}
as far as BibTeX itself is concerned; I didn't even know that cite
keys were case-insensitive until we added crossref support to BibDesk!
Beebe's bibclean will downcase everything except @Article and the
cite key, whereas BibTool will downcase the cite key as well. It is
further interesting that a cite key (according to TLC 2) is
essentially a LaTeX command, and is theoretically subject to the same
restrictions; in practice, BibTeX allows almost anything in the cite
key, so BibTeX 1.0 will have some interesting backwards compatibility
to maintain.
Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Re: a problem after reinstall TeX
From: "Herbert Schulz"
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:10:11 -0500
On Jun 9, 2005, at 8:19 PM, =EC=A0=95 =EB=8B=AC=EC=98=81 wrote:
> Dear all,
> After upgrading to tiger, I reinstalled TeX using i-installer.(2005 =20=
> develop - full)
> I also reinstalled ConTeXt, XeTeX and crate formats for ConTeXt.
>
> All of my private fonts and other style files are located in my =20
> home directory, ~/Library/texmf/... Since there is no changes =20
> of my private files, I only run updmap for my private fonts. After =20=
> this, I got a problem when compile a file to use truetype fonts. It =20=
> couldn't locate fonts and make pk files. the error messages as =20
> following.
>
> (/usr/local/teTeX/share/texmf.tetex/tex/latex/amsfonts/ueuex.fd) =20
> [2] (./crypto.aux)kpathsea: Running mktexpk --mfmode / --bdpi 600 --=20=
> mag 1 +57/600 --dpi 657 ounbtmb7
> mktexpk: Running gsftopk ounbtmb7 657
> gsftopk(k) version 1.19.2
> gs: No such file or directory
> gs terminated abnormally with status 1
>
> grep: ounbtmb7.log: No such file or directory
> mktexpk: `gsftopk ounbtmb7 657' failed to make ounbtmb7.657pk.
> kpathsea: Appending font creation commands to missfont.log.
> Warning: pdflatex (file ounbtmb7): Font ounbtmb7 at 657 not found
> kpathsea: Running mktexpk --mfmode / --bdpi 600 --mag 1+57/600 --dpi
> 657 ounbtmc8
>
> After a long creation of pk files, I got a pdf file which is almost
> blank except some strange letter.
> What did I do wrong? Is there a way to check what cause the problem?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Dalyoung
>
Howdy,
If I'm interpreting correctly, you installed the latest ConTeXt i-=20
package updater. Earlier today I also did that and my Lucida Bright =20
fonts were no longer found. I had to uninstall the ConTeXt (using =20
that option in the i-package) and redo the Configuration step in the =20
TeX i-package and all seems to be back to normal.
Good Luck,
Herb Schulz
(herbs@wideopenwest.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Re: a problem after reinstall TeX
From: "=3D?EUC-KR?B?waQgtN6/tQ=3D=3D?=3D"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:16:17 +0900
Dear Mr. Schultz,
Your comments solved my font problem. It worked fine.
Now, I have to find out how to use ConTeXt.
Thank you.
Dalyoung
> Howdy,
>
> If I'm interpreting correctly, you installed the latest ConTeXt i-
> package updater. Earlier today I also did that and my Lucida Bright
> fonts were no longer found. I had to uninstall the ConTeXt (using
> that option in the i-package) and redo the Configuration step in
> the TeX i-package and all seems to be back to normal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] What Happened to My Lucida Bright?
From: "Gerben Wierda"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:44:40 +0200
On Jun 9, 2005, at 23:33, Herbert Schulz wrote:
> Ok! As happened once before... I also installed the latest ConTeXt
> beta and that messed the fonts up. Once I got rid of that and
> re-configured TeX via the i-installer everything is back to normal.
> Sigh...
There is a ConTeXt-updater package which is upgraded automatically from
the pragma site.
Installing with the i-Package will not change your map file as far as I
know. If it does, I need to find out how and see what I can do about
it.
G
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] What Happened to My Lucida Bright?
From: "Herbert Schulz"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:23:18 -0500
On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:44 PM, Gerben Wierda wrote:
>
> There is a ConTeXt-updater package which is upgraded automatically
> from the pragma site.
>
> Installing with the i-Package will not change your map file as far
> as I know. If it does, I need to find out how and see what I can do
> about it.
>
> G
>
Howdy,
I had the same thing happen to me once before and was told that some
experimental code had inadvertently gone into the ConTeXt Updater i-
package. When I ran the TeX i-package Configurations script again and
told it to delete that local ConTeXt update it all stabilized again.
This time I ran the Uninstall script of the ConTeXt Updater i-package
and then the Configuration script of the TeX i-package and again
thing stabilized. I don't know what was in the latest (and a previous
- I know that there was at least one ``good'' one in between) but it
fonts weren't being found by pdflatex (and possibly dvips but I guess
I didn't test that) so I suspect the map file for pdflatex was being
overwritten with another incompatible one.
Good Luck,
Herb Schulz
(herbs@wideopenwest.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Bruno Voisin"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:14:51 +0200
Le 9 juin 05 =E0 17:25, Simon Spiegel a =E9crit :
> Sorry to be spoil sport here, but could we please restrict the =20
> discussion on the PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?
This one's not completely related, but not completely unrelated as well:
Some developers are interviewed on their impressions on PPC -> Intel =20
porting according to their experience at the MacTel labs made =20
available at WWDC. Among them is Rich Siegel, the chairman of Bare =20
Bones software and creator of BBEdit:
"Our initial analysis and prediction of a smooth transition still =20
appears to be accurate, even after a few days of review and =20
analysis," Siegel said in an e-mail interview. "There are some =20
adjustments to be made, but nothing particularly daunting."
Not really informative, but not really discouraging either, for those =20=
here that use BBEdit.
Bruno Voisin=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Alain Schremmer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:49:29 -0400
Rene Borgella wrote:
> At 11:38 AM -0400 6/9/05, Jon Guyer wrote:
>
>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:25 AM, Simon Spiegel wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to be spoil sport here, but could we please restrict the
>>> discussion on the PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?
>>
>> :
>> :
>>
>>> Maybe I'm the only one who thinks like this,
>>
>>
>> Nope. You're not.
>>
>> -
>
>
>
> My apologies, then. I'm sincerely sorry if I offended anyone or
> caused any one to feel that they wasted their time reading posts off
> the topic of TeX. I hesitated to post this type of info here, but saw
> that several others were seemingly interested in this thread, and so I
> posted two messages.
>
> Just for the record, I DON'T mind when others on this list do
> occasionally post what is not always strictly TeX related, as the
> folks on this list generally have thoughtful, provocative ideas about
> all manner of things -- including TeX!
I certainly second that.
By the way, Spiegel's "could we please restrict the discussion on the
PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?" would seem to eliminate
"TeX" related issue.
More generally, I think that such admonishments are perilously close to
censorship by intimidation. For my part, I just trashed any message
about MacIntel. I think that it has cost me only about 14.83 seconds of
my still very busy life so that I can afford to let those who enjoyed
the thread enjoy it.
Regards to all.
--schremmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Fernando Pereira"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:59:03 -0400
On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:14 AM, Bruno Voisin wrote:
> "Our initial analysis and prediction of a smooth transition still
> appears to be accurate, even after a few days of review and
> analysis," Siegel said in an e-mail interview. "There are some
> adjustments to be made, but nothing particularly daunting."
Swinging this back to TeX on OS X... The issues are different for TeX
(and its command-line support programs) and for front-ends like
TexShop. We know that TeX and its companions work fine on x86. The
problem will not be with the code itself, but rather with the
availability of development tools and systems to create fat binaries
for these applications. In particular, it's not clear yet whether fat
binaries can be built in a standard command-line *nix way, which is
what the build processes for those programs require.
For OS X front-ends, making sure that they use Cocoa fully would go a
long way to ensure portability.
-- F
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Claus Gerhardt"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:03:13 +0200
This is one of the few occasions when I whole heartedly share Alain's
view.
Claus
On 10.06.2005, at 15:49, Alain Schremmer wrote:
> Rene Borgella wrote:
>
>> At 11:38 AM -0400 6/9/05, Jon Guyer wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:25 AM, Simon Spiegel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry to be spoil sport here, but could we please restrict the
>>>> discussion on the PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?
>>>
>>> :
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Maybe I'm the only one who thinks like this,
>>>
>>>
>>> Nope. You're not.
>>>
>>> -
>>
>>
>>
>> My apologies, then. I'm sincerely sorry if I offended anyone or
>> caused any one to feel that they wasted their time reading posts off
>> the topic of TeX. I hesitated to post this type of info here, but
>> saw that several others were seemingly interested in this thread, and
>> so I posted two messages.
>>
>> Just for the record, I DON'T mind when others on this list do
>> occasionally post what is not always strictly TeX related, as the
>> folks on this list generally have thoughtful, provocative ideas about
>> all manner of things -- including TeX!
>
> I certainly second that.
>
> By the way, Spiegel's "could we please restrict the discussion on the
> PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?" would seem to eliminate
> "TeX" related issue.
>
> More generally, I think that such admonishments are perilously close
> to censorship by intimidation. For my part, I just trashed any message
> about MacIntel. I think that it has cost me only about 14.83 seconds
> of my still very busy life so that I can afford to let those who
> enjoyed the thread enjoy it.
>
> Regards to all.
> --schremmer
> --------------------- Info ---------------------
> Mac-TeX Website: http://www.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
> & FAQ: http://latex.yauh.de/faq/
> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
> List Post:
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Alain Schremmer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:01:49 -0400
Jon Guyer wrote:
> On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Rene Borgella wrote:
>
>> My apologies, then. I'm sincerely sorry if I offended anyone
>
> No need to apologize. Certainly I'm not offended and I don't get the
> sense that Simon is, either. I was just supporting his /request/ that
> this list stay on topic. I was also one who previously /requested/
> that this list steer clear of generic TeX, non-OS X TeX questions that
> have other fora. That request has been ignored, making the list less
> valuable for me, but evidently more valuable for the majority of
> people here. So it goes.
> I'm on a number of pretty high-volume lists (MacOSX-TeX is only in the
> middle of the pack). They're hard to keep up with under the best of
> the circumstances, but when they go off into the weeds (as most of
> them did this week) it gets impossible. Life /for me/ is better when
> lists stick to talking about what they say they're going to talk
> about. That's all.
Yes, a measure of occasional inconvenience is the price we /all/ must
pay for freedom.
Regards
--schremmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Simon Spiegel"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:06:21 +0200
On 10.06.2005, at 15:49, Alain Schremmer wrote:
>>
>> My apologies, then. I'm sincerely sorry if I offended anyone or =20
>> caused any one to feel that they wasted their time reading posts =20
>> off the topic of TeX. I hesitated to post this type of info here, =20=
>> but saw that several others were seemingly interested in this =20
>> thread, and so I posted two messages.
>>
>> Just for the record, I DON'T mind when others on this list do =20
>> occasionally post what is not always strictly TeX related, as the =20
>> folks on this list generally have thoughtful, provocative ideas =20
>> about all manner of things -- including TeX!
>>
>
> I certainly second that.
>
> By the way, Spiegel's "could we please restrict the discussion on =20
> the PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?" would seem to =20
> eliminate "TeX" related issue.
>
> More generally, I think that such admonishments are perilously =20
> close to censorship by intimidation.
I actually wanted to stay out of this thread since its whole idea was =20=
to reduce traffic but I think this reply is really weird and =20
completely misses the tone. I mainly asked for something and clearly =20=
said that I'm aware that others might disagree. In no way did I try =20
to intimidate or censor anyone.If the majority on this list doesn't =20
share my opinion -> fair enough, go on. For my part, I'm on this list =20=
to discuss (Xe)(La)TeX related issues and in this area the =20
implications of the Intel switch are not very severe.
simon
--
Simon Spiegel
Mutschellenstr. 97
8038 Z=FCrich
Telephon: ++41 43 535 81 71
Mobophon: ++41 76 459 60 39
http://www.simifilm.ch
"I have never been certain that the moral of the Icarus myth is, as =20
is generally accepted, 'don't fly too high', or whether it might also =20=
be thought of as: 'forget about the wax and feathers, and do a better =20=
job on the wings." Stanley Kubrick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] PPC to Intel
From: "Alain Schremmer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:07:01 -0400
Bruno Voisin wrote:
> Le 9 juin 05 =E0 16:36, Joseph C. Slater a =E9crit :
>
>> To offset the Osborne effect,
>
>
> That really puzzled me, after seeing this very same expression in a =20
> message by Gerben two hours earlier. So, to those like me who had =20
> never paid attention to this expression before, here's what a bit of =20
> googling returned:
>
>
>
> And they even mention WWDC2005.
While of course, Voisin ought to be severely reprimanded for wasting our=20
valuable time, I too had been intrigued so I went to the site and=20
learned something which I enjoyed. So, I thank him.
Regards to all
--schremmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Alain Schremmer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:09:42 -0400
Bob Kerstetter wrote:
> The discussion has been fine, Rene. It's not exactly off-topic. A few
> people will comment on the topic for a few days and then it will go
> away. No big deal. It's just like any other conversation---sometimes
> it strays a little. That's a good thing, now and then.
Indeed.
Regards
--schremmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Jon Guyer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:14:12 -0400
On Jun 10, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Fernando Pereira wrote:
> In particular, it's not clear yet whether fat binaries can be built in
> a standard command-line *nix way, which is what the build processes
> for those programs require.
Several Apple engineers have said that you can, on both the Xcode and
Carbon lists. It is presently awkward, but can be done. Since the
command-line tools are open source (AFAIK), this situation should only
improve, as either Apple or outside parties step in to work on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Jon Guyer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:14:30 -0400
On Jun 10, 2005, at 9:49 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:
> More generally, I think that such admonishments are perilously close
> to censorship by intimidation.
As opposed to accusations of censorship by intimidation, which are
nothing of the kind, right?
C'mon, folks. Let's not get melodramatic about this. Simon made a
request. It was a reasonable request. If you don't agree, then don't
abide by it. The rest of us can then individually decide to join you,
plonk you, unsubscribe entirely, or all of the above.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Jon Guyer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:15:09 -0400
On Jun 10, 2005, at 10:01 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:
>> I'm on a number of pretty high-volume lists (MacOSX-TeX is only in
>> the middle of the pack). They're hard to keep up with under the best
>> of the circumstances, but when they go off into the weeds (as most of
>> them did this week) it gets impossible. Life /for me/ is better when
>> lists stick to talking about what they say they're going to talk
>> about. That's all.
>
> Yes, a measure of occasional inconvenience is the price we /all/ must
> pay for freedom.
Oh dear God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Alain Schremmer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:23:03 -0400
Simon Spiegel wrote:
>
> On 10.06.2005, at 15:49, Alain Schremmer wrote:
>
>>>
>>> My apologies, then. I'm sincerely sorry if I offended anyone or
>>> caused any one to feel that they wasted their time reading posts
>>> off the topic of TeX. I hesitated to post this type of info here,
>>> but saw that several others were seemingly interested in this
>>> thread, and so I posted two messages.
>>>
>>> Just for the record, I DON'T mind when others on this list do
>>> occasionally post what is not always strictly TeX related, as the
>>> folks on this list generally have thoughtful, provocative ideas
>>> about all manner of things -- including TeX!
>>>
>>
>> I certainly second that.
>>
>> By the way, Spiegel's "could we please restrict the discussion on
>> the PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?" would seem to
>> eliminate "TeX" related issue.
>>
>> More generally, I think that such admonishments are perilously close
>> to censorship by intimidation.
>
>
> I actually wanted to stay out of this thread since its whole idea was
> to reduce traffic but I think this reply is really weird and
> completely misses the tone. I mainly asked for something and clearly
> said that I'm aware that others might disagree. In no way did I try
> to intimidate or censor anyone.
I am sure you didn't but, IMO, it had what is called in the US a
"chilling effect", a concept which I had never encountered in my
previous life in France.
> If the majority on this list doesn't share my opinion -> fair enough,
> go on. For my part, I'm on this list to discuss (Xe)(La)TeX related
> issues and in this area the implications of the Intel switch are not
> very severe.
I lied before and I did glance at the messages before trashing them and
this is where I learned that "the implications of the Intel switch are
not very severe".
Regards to all
--schremmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Alain Schremmer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:25:58 -0400
Jon Guyer wrote:
> Oh dear God.
Now /that/ is no doubt unrelated to either Mac or (La)TeX.
Regards
--schremmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Michael S. Hanson"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:35:39 -0400
On Jun 10, 2005, at 9:49 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:
> By the way, Spiegel's "could we please restrict the discussion on the
> PPC -> Intel change to LaTeX related issues?" would seem to eliminate
> "TeX" related issue.
Huh?
> More generally, I think that such admonishments are perilously close
> to censorship by intimidation.
Indeed. How's the French postal service these days?
-- Mike
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Jonathan Kew"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:06:31 -0700
On 10 Jun 2005, at 6:59 am, Fernando Pereira wrote:
>
> On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:14 AM, Bruno Voisin wrote:
>
>
>> "Our initial analysis and prediction of a smooth transition still
>> appears to be accurate, even after a few days of review and
>> analysis," Siegel said in an e-mail interview. "There are some
>> adjustments to be made, but nothing particularly daunting."
>>
>
> Swinging this back to TeX on OS X... The issues are different for
> TeX (and its command-line support programs) and for front-ends like
> TexShop. We know that TeX and its companions work fine on x86. The
> problem will not be with the code itself, but rather with the
> availability of development tools and systems to create fat
> binaries for these applications. In particular, it's not clear yet
> whether fat binaries can be built in a standard command-line *nix
> way, which is what the build processes for those programs require.
Yes, they can.
However, this isn't really necessary (depending on the overall
setup). Consider the output of
$ which tex
which, on my machine, responds
/usr/local/teTeX/bin/powerpc-apple-darwin-current/tex
Note the path. If I were on an Intel Mac, the "powerpc" part would be
replaced by "i686" or something. So the binaries would be separate
anyway. The two architectures can co-exist in a single filesystem
even without universal binaries, by appropriate PATH configuration, etc.
>
> For OS X front-ends, making sure that they use Cocoa fully would go
> a long way to ensure portability.
Those who have been at WWDC this week are, of course, constrained by
the usual NDA rules from saying much, but I think I can take the
liberty of commenting that I see no reason to be concerned. :)
JK
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Bruno Voisin"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:37:41 +0200
Le 10 juin 05 =E0 17:06, Jonathan Kew a =E9crit :
> However, this isn't really necessary (depending on the overall =20
> setup). Consider the output of
>
> $ which tex
>
> which, on my machine, responds
>
> /usr/local/teTeX/bin/powerpc-apple-darwin-current/tex
>
> Note the path. If I were on an Intel Mac, the "powerpc" part would =20
> be replaced by "i686" or something. So the binaries would be =20
> separate anyway. The two architectures can co-exist in a single =20
> filesystem even without universal binaries, by appropriate PATH =20
> configuration, etc.
As far as I understood, the powerpc here in the path (and more =20
generally the imbrication of directories) was Gerben's decision, not =20
something imposed by TeX or OS X in itself. Or did I misunderstand?
So what you're saying is that i-Installer (or whichever installer is =20
used for gwTeX at the time MacTel Macs are released) should detect, =20
at install time, the processor and determine the binaries to be =20
installed (ie chooses then between two directories bin/i686-apple-=20
darwin-current/ and bin/powerpc-apple-darwin-current/, both included =20
inside the i-Package). Would'nt it be simpler to have universal =20
binaries?
It reminds me of the 68k -> PowerPC transition (how old I feel by =20
writing this!), when installers generally gave the choice between 68k =20=
binaries, or PowerPC binaries, or fat binaries running on both =20
processors.
>> For OS X front-ends, making sure that they use Cocoa fully would =20
>> go a long way to ensure portability.
>
> Those who have been at WWDC this week are, of course, constrained =20
> by the usual NDA rules from saying much, but I think I can take the =20=
> liberty of commenting that I see no reason to be concerned. :)
Do you mean here that the info given to developers at the WWDC is =20
covered by the NDA? I thought all that info was public, given the =20
WWDC is a public conference, a bit like a showcase; and that the NDA =20
applied only to prerelease software (like Tiger, the software =20
updates, etc.), got by the developers from the ADC, until the =20
software was released officially.
Similarly I was puzzled, when downloading and installing Xcode 2.1 =20
this week (not that I use it for coding actually!), to see a mention =20
of NDA on the web download page (after entering my ADC login and =20
password). I thought there was nothing secret in Xcode 2.1, that it =20
was public.
So I imagine all the developers who buy a Transition Kit from Apple =20
will also have to sign a NDA?
Bruno Voisin=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Steffen Hokland"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:10:40 +0200
>> Oh dear God.
>>
>
> Now /that/ is no doubt unrelated to either Mac or (La)TeX.
I'm not sure. If I were God I'd deffinetly use (La)TeX...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Beta ConTeXt?
From: "Bob Kerstetter"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:21:37 -0500
Hi Everyone, but Especially Herb and other ConTeXt users.
Some time in recent history, Herb wrote:
> I also installed the latest ConTeXt beta...
I am using ConTeXt some, but have never run the i-package for the
regular updates.
What goes on in ConTeXt development that makes such frequent updates
so attractive?
Thanks.
Bob Kerstetter
http://homepage.mac.com/bkerstetter/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Alain Schremmer"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:21:53 -0400
Steffen Hokland wrote:
>>> Oh dear God.
>>
>> Now /that/ is no doubt unrelated to either Mac or (La)TeX.
>
> I'm not sure. If I were God I'd deffinetly use (La)TeX...
She uses TeX.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Ettore Aldrovandi"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:46:33 -0400
On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 05:37:41PM +0200, Bruno Voisin wrote:
> Le 10 juin 05 =E0 17:06, Jonathan Kew a =E9crit :
=20
> > $ which tex
> >
> >which, on my machine, responds
> >
> > /usr/local/teTeX/bin/powerpc-apple-darwin-current/tex
> >
> As far as I understood, the powerpc here in the path (and more =20
> generally the imbrication of directories) was Gerben's decision, not =20
> something imposed by TeX or OS X in itself. Or did I misunderstand?
By default the ./configure script will put the binaries in a
directory with the machine-name embedded into it. The option
--disable-multiplatform disables that. In my DP installation,
invoking the same command produces
/opt/dports/bin/tex
--E
--=20
Ettore Aldrovandi
Department of Mathematics http://www.math.fsu.edu/~ealdrov
Florida State University aldrovandi at math.fsu.edu
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4510, USA +1 (850) 644-9717 (FAX: 4053)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Justin Walker"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:49:28 -0700
On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:37, Bruno Voisin wrote:
> As far as I understood, the powerpc here in the path (and more
> generally the imbrication of directories) was Gerben's decision, not
> something imposed by TeX or OS X in itself. Or did I misunderstand?
I think that the ...powerpc-apple-.... trick comes from the build
scheme that produces the package that Gerben includes. This is pretty
standard for the so-called "autoconf" build scripts.
The "autoconf" approach makes relatively few assumptions about the
target environment; "fat" binaries are not universal, so most people
that generate such a package don't mess with `em.
Thus: two ways to set up multi-platform support, depending on who sets
up the build mechanism.
>>> For OS X front-ends, making sure that they use Cocoa fully would go
>>> a long way to ensure portability.
>>
>> Those who have been at WWDC this week are, of course, constrained by
>> the usual NDA rules from saying much, but I think I can take the
>> liberty of commenting that I see no reason to be concerned. :)
>
> Do you mean here that the info given to developers at the WWDC is
> covered by the NDA? I thought all that info was public, given the WWDC
> is a public conference, a bit like a showcase; and that the NDA
> applied only to prerelease software (like Tiger, the software updates,
> etc.), got by the developers from the ADC, until the software was
> released officially.
You will have to check with Apple to be sure, but I believe that
anything you get from the (account/password-protected) developer site
is automatically under NDA.
> So I imagine all the developers who buy a Transition Kit from Apple
> will also have to sign a NDA?
Fer sure. The transition stuff is all pre-release, so you will be
bound by an NDA. This is normal, I think.
Regards,
Justin
--
Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large
Institute for General Semantics
--------
Men are from Earth.
Women are from Earth.
Deal with it.
--------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Jonathan Kew"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:30:22 -0700
On 10 Jun 2005, at 8:37 am, Bruno Voisin wrote:
> Le 10 juin 05 =E0 17:06, Jonathan Kew a =E9crit :
>
>
>> However, this isn't really necessary (depending on the overall =20
>> setup). Consider the output of
>>
>> $ which tex
>>
>> which, on my machine, responds
>>
>> /usr/local/teTeX/bin/powerpc-apple-darwin-current/tex
>>
>> Note the path. If I were on an Intel Mac, the "powerpc" part would =20=
>> be replaced by "i686" or something. So the binaries would be =20
>> separate anyway. The two architectures can co-exist in a single =20
>> filesystem even without universal binaries, by appropriate PATH =20
>> configuration, etc.
>>
>
> As far as I understood, the powerpc here in the path (and more =20
> generally the imbrication of directories) was Gerben's decision, =20
> not something imposed by TeX or OS X in itself. Or did I =20
> misunderstand?
It's not imposed by TeX or OS X, but I believe it is based on TeXLive =20=
conventions.
> So what you're saying is that i-Installer (or whichever installer =20
> is used for gwTeX at the time MacTel Macs are released) should =20
> detect, at install time, the processor and determine the binaries =20
> to be installed (ie chooses then between two directories bin/i686-=20
> apple-darwin-current/ and bin/powerpc-apple-darwin-current/, both =20
> included inside the i-Package). Would'nt it be simpler to have =20
> universal binaries?
Possibly, but what if you have your TeX software installed on a =20
filesystem that is also shared with Linux/x86, Solaris, Windows, =20
etc., etc.? This setup was designed with more than just OS X in mind.
>> Those who have been at WWDC this week are, of course, constrained =20
>> by the usual NDA rules from saying much, but I think I can take =20
>> the liberty of commenting that I see no reason to be concerned. :)
>
> Do you mean here that the info given to developers at the WWDC is =20
> covered by the NDA? I thought all that info was public, given the =20
> WWDC is a public conference, a bit like a showcase; and that the =20
> NDA applied only to prerelease software (like Tiger, the software =20
> updates, etc.), got by the developers from the ADC, until the =20
> software was released officially.
To quote from http://developer.apple.com/wwdc2005 ....
"Note that with the exception of the WWDC 2005 Keynote, all =20
information presented or provided to you by Apple during WWDC 2005, =20
including the information on the Attendee Site, is considered =20
Confidential Information and is subject to the terms and conditions =20
of your ADC Membership Agreement with Apple."
> So I imagine all the developers who buy a Transition Kit from Apple =20=
> will also have to sign a NDA?
I imagine that all who buy one, being Select or Premier ADC members, =20
will have already entered into some kind of confidentiality =20
agreement, and the fine print will say that the Transition Kit is =20
covered by this. But I haven't looked to see exactly what it says.
JK=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Bruno Voisin"
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:25:13 +0200
Le 10 juin 05 =E0 18:49, Justin Walker a =E9crit :
> You will have to check with Apple to be sure, but I believe that =20
> anything you get from the (account/password-protected) developer =20
> site is automatically under NDA.
You're certainly right. I'm a free online ADC member, and looking =20
closely (I never had before) I'm realizing that by joining in I have =20
agreed to an ADC Terms and Conditions agreement which includes
"You agree that all information disclosed by Apple to you that
relates to Apple=92s products, designs, business plans, business =20
opportunities, finances, research,
development, know-how, personnel, or third-party confidential =20
information, will be considered and
referred to collectively as =93Confidential Information.=94 Confidential =
=20
Information, however, does not
include: [...]"
and then a list of exceptions.
I had always thought the registration (login/password) required to =20
download Xcode updates and other free software from ADC was very =20
similar to the registration required, for example, to download the =20
free Real Player, or some free Adobe software. But apparently to =20
Apple that means more.
Similarly I never had the impression any info got that way (ie =20
without having Premier or Select membership) could be considered =20
confidential or even important. But apparently I was wrong. So much =20
for spontaneity!
Bruno Voisin=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Threads on MacIntel
From: "Justin Walker"
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:53:03 -0700
On Jun 10, 2005, at 16:25, Bruno Voisin wrote:
> Le 10 juin 05 =E0 18:49, Justin Walker a =E9crit :
>
>> You will have to check with Apple to be sure, but I believe that=20
>> anything you get from the (account/password-protected) developer site=20=
>> is automatically under NDA.
>
> You're certainly right. I'm a free online ADC member, and looking=20
> closely (I never had before) I'm realizing that by joining in I have=20=
> agreed to an ADC Terms and Conditions agreement=20
> which includes
[snip]
> I had always thought the registration (login/password) required to=20
> download Xcode updates and other free software from ADC was very=20
> similar to the registration required, for example, to download the=20
> free Real Player, or some free Adobe software. But apparently to Apple=20=
> that means more.
Most companies that let "developers" in will require something in the=20
way of an NDA. After all, they are (at least in the case of Apple)=20
letting you in on pre-release information, and companies generally=20
aren't happy to have that kind of information floating around at large.
So, it is in no way like the "free registration" for products, where=20
the company may have an interest in who is using their stuff.
> Similarly I never had the impression any info got that way (ie without=20=
> having Premier or Select membership) could be considered confidential=20=
> or even important. But apparently I was wrong. So much for=20
> spontaneity!
Lawyers don't know about spontaneity. They do know about liability and=20=
license agreements :-}.
They will generally agree that you should read what you sign (even if=20
the signature is implicit, by tearing off the shrink-wrap :-}).
Cheers,
Justin
--
Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large
Institute for General Semantics
--------
If you're not confused,
You're not paying attention
--------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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