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Subject: MacOSX-TeX Digest #436 - 09/24/02
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MacOSX-TeX Digest #436 - Tuesday, September 24, 2002
TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
by "Warren Nagourney"
Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
by "Bruno Voisin"
Re: [OS X TeX] Alpha? (was:TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript)
by "Luis Sequeira"
Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
by "William Adams"
Re: [OS X TeX] Alpha? (was:TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript)
by "Jon Guyer"
New version of TeX
by "Georgios Pyrgiotakis"
PLEASE IGNORE THE PREVIOUS QUESTION
by "Georgios Pyrgiotakis"
Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
by "William Adams"
Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
by "Wolfgang Lerche"
Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
by "Warren Nagourney"
Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
by "Bruno Voisin"
Re: [OS X TeX] Alpha? (was:TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript)
by "Joseph C. Slater"
Re: [OS X TeX] New version of TeX
by "Gary L. Gray"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
From: "Warren Nagourney"
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:14:05 -0700
Hello,
I recently wrote my first proposal (to the NSF) using TeXshop/teTeX; I
formerly used TeXtures. First, I hope this doesn't come off as a whine:
I really like TeXShop and in many ways prefer it to TeXtures. The
problem is the large speed difference (up to 10x) between this package
and TeXtures and I wonder whether there is anything I can do to improve
this.
My proposal was 15 pages long and had no equations (I'm an
experimentalist) but contained 8 figures in .eps format. I realize that
pdflatex would be faster, but I often need to share LaTeX source with
others (usually using windows) and I find the .eps format more
convenient for this.
Using TeXtures, it would take about 1-2 seconds for a change in the
source to appear in the typeset window (no antialiasing). In TeXShop,
this takes about 7-10 seconds on a 500 MHz G4 (the TeXing takes about 2
sec). I realize that the antialiasing and ghostscript conversion takes
time, but it seems that the discrepancy is too large. Does anyone have
any suggestions?
I am using TeXShop 1.20 and the latest version of teTeX on Richards
website.
Thanks for any help and for a great application.
Warren Nagourney
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Warren Nagourney Voice:
206-543-9585
University of Washington
-0143
Physics Dept., Box 351560, Seattle, WA 98195 Fax:
206-685-0635
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
From: "Bruno Voisin"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:19:16 +0200
Le mardi, 24 sep 2002, =E0 02:14 Europe/Paris, Warren Nagourney a =E9crit =
:
> [snip]
>
> Using TeXtures, it would take about 1-2 seconds for a change in the=20
> source to appear in the typeset window (no antialiasing). In TeXShop,=20=
> this takes about 7-10 seconds on a 500 MHz G4 (the TeXing takes about=20=
> 2 sec). I realize that the antialiasing and ghostscript conversion=20
> takes time, but it seems that the discrepancy is too large. Does=20
> anyone have any suggestions?
>
> I am using TeXShop 1.20 and the latest version of teTeX on Richards=20
> website.
There is normally not so much difference between TeXShop's and=20
Textures' performances, in my experience. However there is some=20
"incompatibility" between TeXShop and Jaguar (=3D OS X 10.2), which =
might=20
cause what you report. Have you tried disabling syntax coloring, in=20
TeXShop's preferences ? This should make TeXShop much faster. I think=20
TeXShop's developers are working to solve this issue.
Bruno Voisin=20=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Alpha? (was:TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript)
From: "Luis Sequeira"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:43:37 +0100
You could have two copies of each figure (one in eps and one in pdf). Then =
use
\includegraphics without file extension. TeXShop defaults to pdf,
while other TeX systems such as OzTeX default to eps.
Incidentally, OzTeX on OS X interfaces nicely with teTeX (one can run
dvips, pdflatex, etc from a menu). I have been using Alpha together
with OzTeX for years now. I still do, because Alpha is by far the
best editor for LaTeX (and html, C, perl, etc.). The only drawback is
that it is still not available native on OS X (though I can run it in
Classic and Cmd-T invokes the native OzTeX without incident; Cmd-E in
OzTeX puts me back in Alpha inside classic).
Any hopes of having Alpha X come out anytime soon?
Luis Sequeira
>Hello,
>
>I recently wrote my first proposal (to the NSF) using TeXshop/teTeX; I
>formerly used TeXtures. First, I hope this doesn't come off as a
>whine: I really like TeXShop and in many ways prefer it to
>TeXtures. The problem is the large speed difference (up to 10x)
>between this package and TeXtures and I wonder whether there is
>anything I can do to improve this.
>
>My proposal was 15 pages long and had no equations (I'm an
>experimentalist) but contained 8 figures in .eps format. I realize
>that pdflatex would be faster, but I often need to share LaTeX
>source with others (usually using windows) and I find the .eps
>format more convenient for this.
>
>Using TeXtures, it would take about 1-2 seconds for a change in the
>source to appear in the typeset window (no antialiasing). In
>TeXShop, this takes about 7-10 seconds on a 500 MHz G4 (the TeXing
>takes about 2 sec). I realize that the antialiasing and ghostscript
>conversion takes time, but it seems that the discrepancy is too
>large. Does anyone have any suggestions?
>
>I am using TeXShop 1.20 and the latest version of teTeX on Richards =
website.
>
>Thanks for any help and for a great application.
>
>Warren Nagourney
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ =
--
>Warren Nagourney Voice: =
206-543-9585
>University of Washington
>-0143
>Physics Dept., Box 351560, Seattle, WA 98195 Fax: =
206-685-0635
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>Mac TeX info, resources, and news can be found at:
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>List archives can be found at:
>
>Threaded list archives can be found at:
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>See message headers for list info.
>-----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
From: "William Adams"
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:28:42 -0400
Warren Nagourney said:
>Using TeXtures, it would take about 1-2 seconds for a change in the
>source to appear in the typeset window (no antialiasing). In TeXShop,
>this takes about 7-10 seconds on a 500 MHz G4 (the TeXing takes about 2
>sec). I realize that the antialiasing and ghostscript conversion takes
>time, but it seems that the discrepancy is too large. Does anyone have
>any suggestions?
Anti-aliasing shouldn't be at issue---doesn't cause much of a
performance hit.
Piping through GhostScript does, 'cause going through a pipe involves
writing to disk---which is always slow---then reading from disk. You
could set up a RAMdisk to speed that up, but it's the process itself
which is the problem 'cause Textures does all this work internally, and
is able to begin previewing as soon as it generates the current page,
(using the same IPC (Inter Process Communication) system developed for
NeXTTeX / TeXView.app). While this code is still in TeX, one has to work
especially hard to make use of it---Jonathan Fine had a presentation on
his system for doing this at TUG 2000.
Even using pdfTeX, which eliminates a step won't help AIUI, 'cause
TeXShop can't tell Apple's pdfObject to begin previewing until the
_entire_ file has been generated. I suppose one could set up a method
whereby each page is split off as a separate file (this would also be an
interesting way to get two-page spreads to preview), but that would
probably be even more of a performance hit.
You could however, break up your document into logical integral? (is
that the right word for only complete pieces?) page-sized pieces, and
work on and preview each such chunk as a unit.
Not being able to grok TeXShop's source or Apple's docs on their pdf
object, I'll defer further commentary (and possible corrections) to
Peter Koch & co.
On the gripping hand, Blue Sky Research has claimed they're close to
shipping a Carbonized Textures for Mac OS X...
William
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Alpha? (was:TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript)
From: "Jon Guyer"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:19:54 -0400
At 9:43 AM +0100 9/24/02, Luis Sequeira wrote:
>Any hopes of having Alpha X come out anytime soon?
Hope springs eternal.
We're working on it. There are some nasty glitches that make it
unready for public consumption, but I and others in the Alpha Cabal
use it as our primary editor. We hope to address the last of the
major problems and have a public beta out by the end of the year.
--
Jonathan E. Guyer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: New version of TeX
From: "Georgios Pyrgiotakis"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:38:37 -0400
Hi all,
I want to install the new TeX version from Gerben Weirda (sorry if I
misspelled the name), but I have install some additional packages like
the mathematica fonts, and I want to know if the new version will delete
those packages, and I have to install them again (I forgot how I did
that, but the instructions were given by this mailing list). Also is
this version installs ghostscript 7.05? Which I remember was not working
with TeXShop and Preview, only with Acrobat Reader. I really count on
your help,
and thanks in advanced
Georgios
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: PLEASE IGNORE THE PREVIOUS QUESTION
From: "Georgios Pyrgiotakis"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:54:15 -0400
Hi all again,
I should have read the README file. I 'm sorry and thank you
Georgios
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
From: "William Adams"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:07:15 -0400
If this is a dupe, my apologies, I'm not seeing my response.
Warren asked:
>Using TeXtures, it would take about 1-2 seconds for a change in the
>source to appear in the typeset window (no antialiasing). In TeXShop,
>this takes about 7-10 seconds on a 500 MHz G4 (the TeXing takes about 2
>sec). I realize that the antialiasing and ghostscript conversion takes
>time, but it seems that the discrepancy is too large. Does anyone have
>any suggestions?
Textures uses IPC (inter-process communication) as developed for NeXT's
TeXview.app, so can display as soon as the system generates the current
page---by contrast, TeXShop has to wait for the entire document to be
written out as a .dvi, then for dvips to make a .ps, then for
GhostScript to convert that into a .pdf. (and using a pipe is always
slower than accessing memory already allocated to an app).
Using a RAMdisk may speed this up somewhat, but Textures has a huge
advantage, which even switching to pdfTeX won't overcome.
Jonathan Fine had Dr. Art Ogawa give a presentation on one system which
uses IPC (and dvichop?) at TUG 2000---well worth looking that up if one
is interested in the underlying technical stuff.
William
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
From: "Wolfgang Lerche"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:48:46 +0200
On Tuesday, September 24, 2002, at 12:19 PM, Bruno Voisin wrote:
> Le mardi, 24 sep 2002, =E0 02:14 Europe/Paris, Warren Nagourney a =
=E9crit :
>
>> Using TeXtures, it would take about 1-2 seconds for a change in the=20=
>> source to appear in the typeset window (no antialiasing). In TeXShop,=20=
>> this takes about 7-10 seconds on a 500 MHz G4 (the TeXing takes about=20=
>> 2 sec). I realize that the antialiasing and ghostscript conversion=20
>> takes time, but it seems that the discrepancy is too large. Does=20
>> anyone have any suggestions?
>>
>> I am using TeXShop 1.20 and the latest version of teTeX on Richards=20=
>> website.
>
Well, the TeX performance, and other implementation shortcomings,
is one of the reasons why I didn't yet fully switch from Nextstep to=20
OSX.
Under Nextstep, all it takes is to make a keystroke, and 1/2sec
later the result is clearly visible in the previewer - and this=20
includes processing with custom scripts
[eg for auto-determining the format];
The dvi previewer scrolls like 10p/sec, without noticeable delay, it=20
has a crisp readout
and even supports hyperlinks. A 100p paper texes in ca 2sec.(*)
TeX on OSX is far from that, it takes like 20sec for me until I can see=20=
the change in the previewer .
Most of the time goes into the rendering, but the texing itself is also=20=
much slower. (*)
I guess this is not at the fault of the programmers, rather IMHO this=20
is to a large extent due to display pdf,
which I consider a great disadvantage of OSX, together with the font=20
anti-aliasing.
I do not see the point of these washed-out anti-aliased fonts, rather I=20=
get headache from them;
for a comparison between OSX anti-aliased fonts and Nextstep bitmapped=20=
fonts,
see eg. here.
It appears that there is no TeX previewer under OSX that doesn't look=20
worse or much worse
than the previewers on other systems - eg just consider Miktex under=20
W$$ and judge yourself
how the crisp dark saturated fonts look, and how smoothly the previewer=20=
(Acrobat) scrolls.
While Acrobat Reader under OSX looks better than the native previewers,
the performance is even worse and it does not auto-update
[as is typical for a ported "carbonized" app not supporting crucial=20
features].
I would consider it useless for previewing purposes,
were it not that it supports hyperlinks, in contrast to most other=20
previewers.
This is a tremendously useful feature I got used to, eg for checking=20
references in the back of a paper, etc.
All in all, the useability of TeX has decreased for me quite a bit when=20=
switching from Nextstep/Intel to
OSX. In fact the TeX performance is the same as of the good old 25Mhz=20
Nextstations of 1991,
except the display is harder to read.
I find it ironic that in spite all these efforts to make a Mac an=20
outstanding desktop OS,
the bottom line is that the screen display looks worse and is much=20
slower than on other systems.
I can only hope that the situation will evolve with time.
Besides, the lack of postscript support hurts in my academic=20
environment, where all figures are
traditionally in .eps format, so that the exchange of drafts is painful.
Let me add a few wishlist items, since we are at it:
1) add the hand tool to the previewer (like in Acrobat) for moving a=20
page around
2) by all means, add hyperlink support for the previewer (clicking a=20
local link opens
a separate window).
3) allow anti-aliasing to be switched off in the previewer, independent=20=
from the rest of the system, or make otherwise
the rendering more easy to read - completely black, high-contrast fonts=20=
instead of grey fuzzyness.
4) better integration of custom shell scripts. With the demise of=20
Nextstep "Terminal Services",
a lot of functionality has been lost. So ideal would be the possibility=20=
to have an option
for having custom scripts act on selected portions of a file, or on the=20=
file as a whole.
I used it for example for auto-fetching references from preprint=20
archives and pasting them
tex-ready into the file, by a single mouse click: see here.
Such things can be done right now in OSX as well, by using eg=20
TextExtras;
but this is cumbersome to set up and not very convenient to use.
One may also more broadly discuss about developing a Tex environment=20
(perhaps as a plugin?)
specifically tailored for use with the eprint archives. I think that=20
there is a large set of potential academic users
who submit all their papers to the archives and download most of the=20
papers from there.
A lot of structure is already in place but not really made use of so=20
far, by existing software.
Eg the files have built-in hyperlinks, so that in principle one could=20
make a reference to one particular equation
or chapter in a given paper; so that a click on the link would fetch=20
that paper and display the eqn in an extra window.
Moreover, one could provide "Services" to allow for auto-texing (incl=20
format determination) and previewing a file by
a mouse click, and similarly, auto-texing of selected portions of=20
files. Ditto for downloading eprints from the archives
without browser, by just selecting a preprint number anywhere, etc -=20
lots of features to think about !
In the past, all of this was easy to implement via Nextstep "Terminal=20
Services", which have gone in OSX; so it may be
worthwhile to ponder about implementing them more directly in an app.
I think here is an opportunity to create an application that would be=20
tremendously useful and stand
out from the competition. So far, I must say despite the laudable=20
efforts of many people, the TeX
implementation on OSX is not better than other implementations - to the=20=
contrary,
IMHO it is more cumbersome to use than certain implementations that=20
exist already since 10 or more years.
Important is not to have as many buttons and features as possible, but=20=
efficiency and easyness of use, which
builds on performance, integration and smoothness of how well things=20
work together.
=46rom this viewpoint, Nextstep is still unparalleled.
(*) the comparison is between a 800Mhz Pentium running Nextstep, and a=20=
733Mhz G4 with 512MB.
Wolfgang Lerche
---------------------------------------------------
CERN, Theoretical Physics Div
1211 Geneva 23 Switzerland
wolfgang.lerche@cern.ch
http://nxth21.cern.ch/~lerche/
---------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
From: "Warren Nagourney"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:42:59 -0700
Many thanks to all who responded. I believe the approach of using
pdftex/pdflatex and leaving the extensions off is a good one. Then
either program can be used without changing the source.
I did some measurements of the time between changing the text and
seeing the preview. Using tex+ghostscript it took 8 seconds, using
pdftex it took 3 seconds. Not surprisingly, ghostscript is the big time
consumer.
By the way, I haven't noticed any slowdowns due to syntax coloring. I
am using TeXShop 1.2 and Jaguar. Also, I agree that antialiasing is not
the issue; I mentioned it since it is *very* slow in TeXtures (one of
the many advantages of TeXshop).
Thanks again.
Warren Nagourney
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Warren Nagourney Voice:
206-543-9585
University of Washington
206-543-0143
Physics Dept., Box 351560, Seattle, WA 98195 Fax:
206-685-0635
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript
From: "Bruno Voisin"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:07:23 +0200
Le mardi, 24 sep 2002, =E0 16:48 Europe/Paris, Wolfgang Lerche a =E9crit =
:
> [snip]
>
> I do not see the point of these washed-out anti-aliased fonts, rather=20=
> I get headache from them;
> for a comparison between OSX anti-aliased fonts and Nextstep bitmapped=20=
> fonts,
> see eg. here.
> It appears that there is no TeX previewer under OSX that doesn't look=20=
> worse or much worse
> than the previewers on other systems - eg just consider Miktex under=20=
> W$$ and judge yourself
> how the crisp dark saturated fonts look, and how smoothly the=20
> previewer (Acrobat) scrolls.
In OS X 10.2, in the System Pref "General" there is a new item allowing=20=
to setup anti-aliasing (to some extent). But not yet to switch it off.=20=
And yes, I too have sometimes the impression of seeing an unfocused=20
screen when I watch an anti-aliased window.
> One may also more broadly discuss about developing a Tex environment=20=
> (perhaps as a plugin?)
> specifically tailored for use with the eprint archives. I think that=20=
> there is a large set of potential academic users
> who submit all their papers to the archives and download most of the=20=
> papers from there.
This depends on the scientific community. Yes in physics preprint=20
archives are ubiquitous, but in my community (mechanics) they aren't:=20
in fluid mechanics, a scientific paper is generally only considered as=20=
such after it has gone through a full refereeing process (2 to 4=20
referees per paper). This means between 3 months to one year (sometimes=20=
more) between submission and publication, which is one problem. On the=20=
other hand this also means that the amount of information I have to=20
process daily as a scientist is smaller, which I consider quite good.
FWIW,
Bruno Voisin=
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] Alpha? (was:TeXShop/teTeX speed using TeX+ghostscript)
From: "Joseph C. Slater"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:59:34 -0400
AlphaTK runs on OS X. See mac-tex for links. Unfortunately it's a
totally different license.
Joe
On Tuesday, September 24, 2002, at 04:43 AM, Luis Sequeira wrote:
>
> Any hopes of having Alpha X come out anytime soon?
>
> Luis Sequeira
>
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
(+1) 937-775-5085
http://www.cs.wright.edu/~jslater
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New version of TeX
From: "Gary L. Gray"
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:11:35 -0400
On Tuesday, September 24, 2002, at 09:38 AM, Georgios Pyrgiotakis
wrote:
> Also is this version installs ghostscript 7.05? Which I remember was
> not working with TeXShop and Preview, only with Acrobat Reader.
You can install GS 6 or 7. As far as I can tell, all Quartz display
issues with GS 7 have been fixed in Jaguar.
-- Gary L. Gray
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of MacOSX-TeX Digest
-----------------------------------------------------
Mac TeX info, resources, and news can be found at:
-----------------------------------------------------
List archives can be found at:
Threaded list archives can be found at:
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